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07 October 2005

Infinity and the Universe

In a recent post I argued for the existence of God in part by arguing that the universe had to have a beginning. My main argument for that thesis involved making a case that the universe cannot be infinitely old because an actual infinite number of past events is impossible. That post generated a lot of response, much of which I counter-responded to earlier. One response I received was a bit lengthier than others and deserves somewhat more detailed comment. Here goes. . .

the gnu said. . .
The argument assumes a premiss that is metaphysically disputable and that our best physical theories deny, namely that time proceeds successively and does not just appear to do so for us. The most popular view of time is that it is simply another dimension of spacetime similar to the other dimensions of space. Consequently, the past can be already infinite and settled as well as the future and be an actual infinite. Strictly speaking, time does not literally start at the begining and finish at the end (or finsih up 'til now). Time already exists in toto as an aspect of the Paramidean material singularity called spacetime.

You are right that time is viewed today as part of the space-time nexus. However, it is far from being any kind of consensus that time is not linear or that time is given to us all at once or that time is simply a psychological illusion as your above comments suggest. Perhaps some scientists think about time this way, but this is not a universal part of our "best theories." More to the point, however, my argument was not really about time in any case. The argument was about past events. I argued that there cannot be an actually infinite number of past events. No doubt, events take place in time, but that is beside the point. Regardless of what time is like, regardless of which direction it moves, regardless of of whether it is somehow given all at once, there can only be a finite number of past events. The example of the so-called "infinite library" that I gave makes this point. There cannot be a real library with
an infinite number of rooms. Likewise, there cannot be a universe with an infinite number of events.

Further, any singular material object the matter of which is continuous is potentially infinitely divisible and this is all we mean by assuming the universe is "actually infinite".

If this is all we mean by "infinite" then there is no dispute, and I win--the universe is only finitely old. I readily admit that there are potential infinites--sets which can potentially increase in number forever through successive addition, but which at any given point are actually finite. What I am arguing against is the existence of an actual infinite in concrete reality.

The appearance of the flow of time is epiphenomenal to the dynamics of matter and is simply a systematic mistake that our brains make on the level of classical perception.I'm not arguing that this view is true but that its a possible view with motivations based on science. Since the argument rightly concludes that if we take something like a common sense view of time seriously we have to pose an ultimate first cause. Since the scientistic already is suspicious of a common sense view of time, he won't find the argument from Craig cogent.

Of course, the idea that time is unreal and merely a psychological illusion is possible. But, as you admit, we don't know this, and it is contrary to common sense. And, again, not all scientists find the common sense view of time suspicious--I dare say that most scientist don't find it suspicious at all! If I'm wrong about this, then I am willing to be enlightened. In any case, if all scientists thought that time was unreal, that would give us little reason to reject the common sense view of time. Rather, it would give us reason to doubt the theories of the scientists.

9 Comments:

Anonymous J said...

"Common sense" is a very subjective term and closely related to the amount of knowledge about the world that we have so far obtained. At one point in human history it was common sense to believe that the world is flat, or that the Earth was the center of the universe, for example, but obviously now we know better. Theoretical physics simply has not advanced far enough on the issue to make any credible, and most importantly testable judgements at this point.

In case even if the universe did have a beginning, how does that in any way imply that God exists? Wouldn't the Creator also need a 2nd Creator to create him and so forth? Or if it is possible for the Creator to have always been there, than isn't it possible for the Universe to also have always been there?

10 October, 2005  
Blogger Dr. Steve Cowan said...

j said...
In case even if the universe did have a beginning, how does that in any way imply that God exists? Wouldn't the Creator also need a 2nd Creator to create him and so forth? Or if it is possible for the Creator to have always been there, than isn't it possible for the Universe to also have always been there?

God existence is implied by an analysis of the type of being required to bring the universe into being ex nihilo. Having shown that the universe had a definite beginning, we ask the question of what must the cause of the universe be like? As I argued in my original post on this topic, the cause of the universe must be eternal, immutable, immaterial, powerful, and personal.

And no, the creator wouldn't need to have a creator b/c the creator would be, as I stated above, an eternal, immutable, and therefore self-existent being.

As for your last question, it's a good one. If we assume that God is in time (or was in time sans creation), then we have a problem. If there cannot be an infinite number of past events, then it follows that God cannot have existed for an infinitely long time. Converse, if it were possible for God to have an infinite past, then the universe could have one too--that's right. But, at least "prior" to creation, God existed outside of time. He is not eternal in the sense of having always existed without beginning. Rather, he is eternal in the sense of not being subject to temporal change. He was/is not part of the flow of time. So, there's no problem here.

11 October, 2005  
Blogger DeathRowBodine said...

j said:
if it is possible for the Creator to have always been there, than isn't it possible for the Universe to also have always been there?

Steve,

Is there a difference between "chronologically infinite" and "eternal?" It seems to me that the formal definition of "eternality" seems to hint at something outside of chronological time, perhap even outside of the logical progression of events.

This places the atheist on the horns of a dilemma. For example, you have already logically argued for the impossibility of progressing to "now" through a chronological infinity, but "j" seems to be willing to ascribe an attribute of God (namely eternality) to an impersonal universe.

Here is the problem: Scientific evidence suggest that the universe had a beginning, or at the very least experienced a change that is currently known to NOT be a cyclical oscillation. Therefore, without cause, the universe suddenly "decided" to do something that it had not done in eternity past. The atheistic materialist now finds himself ascribing "volition" to the universe, stepping him ever closer to yet another attribute of God.

Every apparent "escape" except the "Escape From Reason" leads one Coram Deo. Conversely, the "escape from reason" -as Francis Schaeffer describes- leads to chaos, madness, despair, absurdity... In other words, it leads to coming face to face with Satan.

07 November, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As a resident in the United Kingdom who happened to stumble upon your web-site, I thought you might be interested in the point of view of someone from a dominantly secular country, which watches the growing evangelism in the US with a mixture of amusement and consternation.
There are constant and complex debates around the world over concepts such as God and Creation and such like, but most of it is entirely unnecessary. This is not because the existence of a God is proven or unproven (neither is true). It's just that ordinary science discovered DECADES ago how all life in the universe formed - from the evolution of super-giant stars. This is where the heavy elements such as carbon, oxygen, nitrogen and iron that make up planets, oceans and people are made and distributed throughout galaxies after supernova explosions scatter them in giant gas clouds. Gravity causes these clouds to condense naturally, and new stars are formed, surrounded by planets rich with the elements of life. This process has been PROVEN via observations and measurements from Supernova SN1987A, and images from the Hubble Space Telescope of proto-planetary disc formation in the Orion Nebula. Spectroscopy has identified the elements of life in both these observed phenomena.
Although I, and almost everyone I know, have no problem with religion in general, we do find it bizarre that in the 21st Century, so much of the population of one of our greatest civilisations, the United States, are still living in a fantasy of immortal Gods and supposed miracle men. The supposed Messiah 'Jesus Christ' has been shown beyond all reasonabl doubt to be unknown to history, in the same way that Perseus of Hercules is unknown to history - found only in legends and fables.
We here in the UK have learned one thing very well - we have no religion, and never needed one. Life is much more rewarding, and indeed interesting, when it is viewed with a desire to FIND THE TRUTH, rather than have 'faith' in fables and then try to 'prove' them correct. Science proves itself correct over time, time and time again. Religion just keeps struggling to hold on....
DC

09 November, 2005  
Anonymous Against Christianity said...

Mr. Anonymous--

You have an amazing faith in modern science, since all of the assertions that you make are completely UNPROVEN.

Just goes to show that if one exchanges the truth of God for a lie then his senseless heart will be darkened.

17 November, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is no such thing as 'faith' in modern science; only the search for answers. It is honesty that finds those answers, through experiment and result.
You offer no evidence for your claim, no sources - no nothing. Yours is not an argument from reason, it is one from ignorance. Go to the home page, and look at the replies I've made to the responses to my original blog - there's names there, dates, reasons that support the PROOF of which you are so ignorant.
God (Yawheh, just one of many ancient Hebrew gods) is the lie, not proven science, and if this were not true, then you would not be able to read this reply, as your computer - which relies upon that science, the study of the properties of light - would not work.
The mythical JC appears absolutely nowhere in history outside of the Bible, in the same way that Darth Vader appears nowhere in history outside of Star Wars DVD's.
It is your heart that is dark, and it is you who is afraid of the truth.
DC

17 November, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

all I am interested in is somebody to explain " Infinity ". How can I understand how that if I take a space craft and go up and up and up with no ending. Please somebody explain this to me. I have always been trying to understand this , but my brain just cannot accept how there is no end.

22 November, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Time is endless, space is endless, that's ok, but what about our minds? Is human capacity also endless? I know we don't know how to use our brain with perfect efficiency. If we really made use of our potential capacity would it be possible to understand the concept of endlessness? I just ask and want to discuss the matter. I myself don't know the answers, would you share your ideas? I can't perceive the concept of infinity either just like the visitor wrote before me.

04 March, 2008  
Blogger Matt said...

i hope someone reads this comment...
to the last two comments, the human mind cannot comprehend infinity. we have not evolved that way. i dont see what benefit understanding infinity is, or even how to push an organism towards that, so its pretty safe to say we will never be able to comprehend infinity.
we know the universe is abuot 14 billion years old from the point of expansion. "spacetime" the relativistic medium of reality is what came out, along with matter etc. There was no time before the big bang, and asking what happened before it is nonsensical. Although there is research into it, and many hypotheses are being developed, but to me it seems untestable and probably pointless.
I dont see how this infers an intelligent god being. the question should be "how did the universe start" not "who started the universe." I dont get the jump from 'finite universe' to 'god exists.' Just because we dont have a naturalistic explanation yet, doesn't mean one doesn't exist.
Lets say for sake of argument that god did start the universe. that only tells us that god started the universe. not that he authorised the bible, or that he is eternal, immutable, immaterial, and ESPECIALLY not personal. I appreciate the use of the word "powerful" in your list because its certainly not proven he is omnipotent. there seems to be a lot of gaps in your reasoning. I hope to hear back from someone on this.

25 September, 2008  

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